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Women and Head Coverings....

Discussion on the nature of the Scriptures and methods of biblical interpretation.

Women and Head Coverings....

Postby johnsonshan » July 3rd, 2010, 6:34 pm

Hello everyone!
I had a question about the passage in the bible that talks about women wearing head coverings and such (I'm sure you're all familiar with it).
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... 11&t=NIV#5
These verses are often referenced in pro-gay theology and are used to show that because of their cultural attachment, we are no longer subject to it...i.e. wearing or not wearing head coverings during prayer/exclusion of gay people from church life, leadership, and marriage is subjective to culture. That's a really simple explanation, but I just want to get the general subject out there.
I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. However, I have some trouble chalking up the verse...

"For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (1 Cr 11:10),

...to culture.

Furthermore, Paul seems to be making his argument out of the natural order of things: God is the head of Christ is the head of the church is the head of man is the head of woman. Man is the image and glory of God, Woman is the image and glory of man, therefore she ought to have a symbol of authority on her head. I assume the authority on her head is her husband, and it also serves to humble her as she is representing man.

Now, I don't wear head coverings, and most of the people I know do not either. When I bring this topic up with my friends, they all agree with me that it is subject to culture and does not apply to today. However, when it comes to homosexuality, we are suddenly unable to agree to apply culture to it. (This verse can be very useful to show the way we sometimes subjectively apply logic inconsistently in our interpretations of the bible).

SO, even though I use the argument from culture to support my affirming/non-head covering position, looking back to 1 Corinthians, I'm finding it hard to prove it actually is cultural, mostly because of the business about the angels.  :confused:

It's so strange to me because it seems that the verses in 1 Corinthians are actually MORE difficult to provide a cultural explanation for than the verses in Romans 1, yet, everyone has a WAY easier time letting go of head coverings rather than the "sinfulness" of homosexuality....does this dilemma make sense to anyone else???
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby Free » July 3rd, 2010, 7:12 pm

Oh my gosh i just had this same exact discussion with pastor weekly! This very passage had led me to be side b. He definitely brought a new perspective. I have resolve to let GOD speak to me on which argument is accurate
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby johnsonshan » July 6th, 2010, 7:39 pm

Furthermore, if the reason Paul gave those commands was because in that particular time and culture, head coverings encouraged the efficacy of spreading the gospel message, why would he use evidence that seems to transcend cultural limitations in order to support his argument?
Or maybe, "...because of the angels" doesn't imply what I'm thinking it implies (namely, something trans-cultural)
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby Pastor Weekly » July 12th, 2010, 5:55 pm

johnsonshan wrote:Hello everyone!
I had a question about the passage in the bible that talks about women wearing head coverings and such (I'm sure you're all familiar with it).
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... 11&t=NIV#5
These verses are often referenced in pro-gay theology and are used to show that because of their cultural attachment, we are no longer subject to it...i.e. wearing or not wearing head coverings during prayer/exclusion of gay people from church life, leadership, and marriage is subjective to culture. That's a really simple explanation, but I just want to get the general subject out there.
I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. However, I have some trouble chalking up the verse...

"For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (1 Cr 11:10),

...to culture.


Let's look at this passage in a greater context...

1 Corinthians 11:3-16 wrote:But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.  [4]  Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.  [5]  But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.  [6]  For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.  [7]  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.  [8]  For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.  [9]  Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.  [10]  For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.  [11]  Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.  [12]  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.  [13]  Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?  [14]  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?  [15]  But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.  [16]  But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


It's a long quotation, I know, but it's important to examine the greater context t o get the right interpretation and application.

1) The head of the woman is the man... (v. 3) Does this not ring as cultural, dependent upon the people living in a patriarchal society? Go back to the garden of Eden. Eve was not pronounced as subordinate to Adam until after the Fall. God's intent was that they would be equal, and, in fact, that's how He views us (Gal. 3:28). So then, the head of the woman is not the man in 2010. The head of the woman, just like the head of the man, is Christ. A woman does not need a man in her life in order to br brought under authority and have a covering. But, 2000 years ago, she did, because she had few legal and social rights without that covering.

2) ...dishonoreth her head... as if she were shaven... (v. 5) This is to say that it is dishonorable for a woman's head to be shaved, yet today, many women have short or no hair. A legalistic approach to Scripture would require all women to have long hair, even though our society no longer views hair lengths as having anything to say about the woman's character.

Note that the Greek word for "dishonoreth" is kataischuno, and means to disgrace or make ashamed. This word is, by its very nature, culturally subjective. What disgraces someone in ancient Japanese culture, or ancient Native American culture, is completely different than what would have disgraced them in Ancient Greco-Roman culture, or in many modern cultures. Consider many Arab countries, where a woman not being fully covered (with a burqa) is disgraceful there, but not in Western nations.

3) ...nature itself teach[es] you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him... (v. 14) Let's look back at the ancient cultures. A thousand years before Paul wrote this, there was a sect called the Nazarites, in which the men never shaved their head. They were an honored sect, and the hero Samson was one of them. If long hair on a man was, by nature, wrong, why would God put Samson's strength in his long hair? That would be like God putting the source of one's blessing or anointing in their sin--like my being anointed only when I'm fornicating or cussing. Such a notion is contrary to God's nature, proving that from the divine perspective, no such mores exist. They are subject to the society in which a person lives.

Even contemporaneously with Paul statement, it was honorable for Japanese men, as well as Native American men, to have long hair. Are we to believe that Paul's words were an indictment against them, especially considering that Paul didn't have these other cultures anywhere in his mind when writing this? Again, look at the Nazarites, which were a sect of Paul's own people--the Hebrews--yet they were an honored group a thousand years before.

Yet, Paul appealed to a seemingly transcultural justification for his teaching--nature. We can, then, only draw one sound conclusion. Even though a transcultural justification was used, it was only used in validation of a cultural point. The point itself doesn't become transcultural; despite the fact that a transcultural supporting argument is used.

Let's build on this with my next point...

1Timothy 2:9-14 wrote:In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;  [10]  But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.  [11]  Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.  [12]  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.  [13]  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.  [14]  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


Once again, Paul uses a transcultural justification for a cultural argument. Women are to adorn themselves not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly clothing... because Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but Eve was (vs. 13-14). This is certainly a transcultural justification, for it doesn't matter what society or time period you live in. It's a historical fact that Adam was formed first, and that Eve was deceived. Still, I bet that even the girls you know who pray with their head covered probably have gold earrings, or sometimes wear their hair braided (or did when they were children). They probably own a dress that cost more than $40. Surely, they didn't buy a nice dress to wear to the prom, and wouldn't buy a nice wedding dress, because all of such things would be in violation of their not wearing costly attire.

And what about women's roles in the Church? Should they not be allowed to so much as ask a question in Bible class, seeing as they are commanded to "learn/be in silence"? Although a few fringe denominations still oppress women in this way, most have gotten the memo that these commands were based upon the social status of women during that time. They must have been, otherwise Deborah never would have been a judge over Israel 800 years prior!

The point: The existence of a transcultural argument/justification does not make the point being validated any less culturally subjective. We mustn't lose sight of the fact that Paul was addressing particular people in a particular time living under particular social mores. He may have used various arguments to back up his points, but the points were still limited to the scope of that particular society.

4) ...we have no such custom... (v. 16). Paul clearly called this teaching a custom. He basically said, if anybody has a problem with it, let them know that our custom here is different than theirs, so they need to just get with the program. Basically, it's a "when in Rome" situation--this was their custom, so others were expected to follow it. Still, it was a custom, nonetheless, not a universal, divinely mandated practice. Note that in the same context in which Paul appealed to nature and to the angels, he still called this a "custom".

johnsonshan wrote:SO, even though I use the argument from culture to support my affirming/non-head covering position, looking back to 1 Corinthians, I'm finding it hard to prove it actually is cultural, mostly because of the business about the angels.  :confused:


Paul's mention of the angels is almost certainly a reference back to the angels who sinned in the days of Noah, because they saw the beauty of the "daughters of men" and came down and married them. So, he's basically saying, "For their sakes, show that you have a covering (that you're already submitted to a man) and that you're not available, so that they won't be tempted." Although this is Paul's point, I certainly don't think that we need to take it as a solemn warning, that angels today would be tempted to have sex with human women. Even in Noah's day, it's not like a covered head would have prevented those rebellious angels from stepping outside of their proper domain. Once again, Paul is just using this statement as a way of backing up his teaching; but it, itself, should not be considered doctrinal or universal (transcultural).

I hope these considerations are helpful in addressing your concerns.
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby johnsonshan » July 18th, 2010, 2:22 pm

Thanks Pastor, they're very helpful.
Maybe you answered this already and I just didn't get it, but if it doesn't matter whether or not the argument Paul makes uses trans-cultural justification, than how do we tell which verses still apply and which are no longer applicable?
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby Pastor Weekly » July 19th, 2010, 3:29 am

We can only use the context and logic.

The use of logic when it comes to biblical interpretation isn't very welcome within conservative precincts. In truth, I advocated against the use of natural/carnal logic when it comes to interpretation; however, one cannot argue with Jesus.

When the Pharisees accused Him of breaking the Sabbath by allowing His disciples of harvest corn and by healing a sick man, He did not respond by asking them to turn to Isaiah chapter so and so, verse so and so. His response was logical, not theological. He asked, "Which one of you, having an ox that fell into a ditch, would leave it there until the next day? Isn't a man more important than an ox?" Of course, this is a best-memory paraphrase, but it's the gist of what His argument was.

So, coming to accept this reality, I had to expand my mind beyond a legalistic approach to interpretation, where the only prism through which I could view/interpret the text was the explicitly written context. When I saw that logic played a part, it helped me tremendously in discerning the application of the passages in question.

Now, there's a danger here. Because logic is carnal/natural, it is both fallible and subjective. This brings up the obvious concern: How do we know that our logic is sound, and that it's leading us to the proper interpretation/application of a text?

The answer is that, as with all matters of interpretation, we can only consider what we read in light of what we know of the greater testimony of Scripture (letting Scripture interpret Scripture), as well as what we know about God and His modus operandi. If something doesn't gel with His character or with the overall teaching of Scripture, I believe that it's not only safe to consider it culturally subjective, but it's duty to consider it so.

So, when it comes to women with head coverings, we must ask... What do we know about God and His view of women? We know that He sees neither male nor female, but that in Christ, we are all one. What do we know about the authority that one should have over the other? We know that after Adam and Eve sinned, Eve was subjected to Adam; however, we also know that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and to reconcile us back to God--to set things aright. Indeed, Scripture calls Jesus the second Adam, which absolutely leads to the logical conclusion that the subjection of women that was pronounced after the Fall is abrogated by the restoration brought by Christ's sacrifice. That which the first Adam screwed up, the second Adam fixed, which would also include the subjugation of women to men. The fact that there is neither male nor female in Him only solidifies this notion.

Broadening this out to biblical interpretation in general (and not to any specific doctrine), the point is that context, the greater testimony and Scripture, and logic all works hand-in-hand. We can only make a sincere and honest effort to discern the truth based upon these factors, all the while being open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus promised would ultimately guide us into all truth.

I'll close by making note of the fact that even amongst very conservative congregations, this approach to interpretation is often applied, even if unbeknownst to the people doing it. Many of the same churches that believe that only the text itself can inform our interpretation allow women to preach. A great many of them allow women to pray with their head uncovered. In fact, your mention of women you personally know who do not pray with their head uncovered is actually the first mention of such a practice within modern American churches that I'm aware of (and that's saying a lot for someone who was raised Pentecostal). So, the vast majority of even our conservative churches don't require such things, indicating their adherence to the interpretative principles I've outlined here, even if they won't admit it when the subject turns to homosexuality.
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby johnsonshan » July 19th, 2010, 11:41 pm

When the Pharisees accused Him of breaking the Sabbath by allowing His disciples of harvest corn and by healing a sick man, He did not respond by asking them to turn to Isaiah chapter so and so, verse so and so. His response was logical, not theological. He asked, "Which one of you, having an ox that fell into a ditch, would leave it there until the next day? Isn't a man more important than an ox?" Of course, this is a best-memory paraphrase, but it's the gist of what His argument was.


Wow! I hadn't thought of that.

Broadening this out to biblical interpretation in general (and not to any specific doctrine), the point is that context, the greater testimony and Scripture, and logic all works hand-in-hand. We can only make a sincere and honest effort to discern the truth based upon these factors, all the while being open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus promised would ultimately guide us into all truth.


I like this a lot!!...but I guess it's scary. Especially when you're trying so hard to do what is right, when you're goal in life is to know you've made God proud. It requires so much wrestling, testing, and discernment. You could feel as though your constant questions and re-evaluations leave you without a foundation to stand on, and so you can't move forward. And then there's the added frustration of opposing sides both claiming the fruit and favor of the Holy Spirit's guidance. Who do you believe?
I guess the beautiful thing about fruits is that they always show themselves. Maybe its just a waiting game...?

P.S.
Pastor, I couldn't help but notice that your post was made at 2:30am (maybe the time zone difference is throwing me off a bit). THAT's commitment. And I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions and manage this site.
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby Sozo » July 20th, 2010, 7:52 pm

I like this a lot!!...but I guess it's scary. Especially when you're trying so hard to do what is right, when you're goal in life is to know you've made God proud. It requires so much wrestling, testing, and discernment. You could feel as though your constant questions and re-evaluations leave you without a foundation to stand on, and so you can't move forward. And then there's the added frustration of opposing sides both claiming the fruit and favor of the Holy Spirit's guidance.



I've found that the more you do it the better you get. The more you learn and grow as a Christian and the more you learn about our God the easier it all becomes. You can easily recognize what isn't right or what seems out of place. Sure there will be those things that might give you pause, but that's the great thing, we can always go back and check ourselves with the Word.
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Re: Women and Head Coverings....

Postby Joe Allen Doty » September 6th, 2010, 2:34 pm

You have to read IN CONTEXT all of Paul's writings.

It was a common practice of the male pagans in Corinth to pray with no head gear and for the female pagans to pray with their head covered with some kind of scarf.

I just interpret the context as "When in Corinth, do as the Corinthians do."

I attended a College Youth Reunion which was held at a local Assembly of God on Sunday, Aug. 29 in the afternoon. That evening I stayed for the worship service. I was wearing a baseball type cap when the group met and I left my cap on because the overhead lights in the sanctuary bothered my eyes.

No one even commented about my wearing a cap.
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